<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Posh jobs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.youthmoney.com/2010/02/03/posh-jobs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.youthmoney.com/2010/02/03/posh-jobs/</link>
	<description>helping young people take control of their finances</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:41:07 +0100</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Watson</title>
		<link>http://www.youthmoney.com/2010/02/03/posh-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-3033</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Watson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:41:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.youthmoney.com/?p=750#comment-3033</guid>
		<description>I agree there! If they can pay their workers to do work for them, why should they not be paying someone they take on and expect to do work within set hours etc, simply by calling them &quot;voluntary&quot;?

And yes, this idea that people can be unpaid simply because they are &quot;volunteers&quot; (on the basis that they accept that they won&#039;t be paid) is utter bosh. Treat them like a worker and they most certainly should be paid - ethically and legally!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree there! If they can pay their workers to do work for them, why should they not be paying someone they take on and expect to do work within set hours etc, simply by calling them &#8220;voluntary&#8221;?</p>
<p>And yes, this idea that people can be unpaid simply because they are &#8220;volunteers&#8221; (on the basis that they accept that they won&#8217;t be paid) is utter bosh. Treat them like a worker and they most certainly should be paid &#8211; ethically and legally!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: PJ White</title>
		<link>http://www.youthmoney.com/2010/02/03/posh-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-3032</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 20:53:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.youthmoney.com/?p=750#comment-3032</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Mark, that&#039;s helpful.

I take your point that there&#039;s some difference in law between volunteer and voluntary worker. But I confess I don&#039;t I understand it. And I find the direct gov stuff a bit garbled and hard to believe. To say you have an employment contract and at the same time you are not employed is too sophisticated for me.

There&#039;s this from the National Council for Voluntary Organisation&#039;s legal briefing. It starts saying:

&quot;There is currently no legislation specifically covering volunteer workers. Neither is there any legal definition of what a voluntary worker is.  Organisations have to be careful that the volunteers don&#039;t become employees in the eyes of the law.&quot;

and ends up with a warning:

&quot;Remember you cannot &#039;require&#039; anything of your volunteers. They cannot be bound by contractual obligations without being considered employees by employment tribunals. For example, if you think it would be best that volunteers remain with you for a certain period of time, you should phrase it such that it is not a demand, but only a hope &#039;that the volunteer have a long, pleasant stay&#039; with your organisation. Such statements should be reflected in your working practice. Flexibility should be shown toward volunteers who fail to fulfil their expectations.&quot;

http://www.ncvo-vol.org.uk/advice-support/workforce-development/hr-employment-practice/managing-volunteers/legal-status

I heard from Oxfam today. They&#039;re working on a response and going to get back to me. I suspect it may be along the lines you say. But even if they feel legally covered (and without a test case tribunal I suspect they won&#039;t know), I still have misgivings about their ethical position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Mark, that&#8217;s helpful.</p>
<p>I take your point that there&#8217;s some difference in law between volunteer and voluntary worker. But I confess I don&#8217;t I understand it. And I find the direct gov stuff a bit garbled and hard to believe. To say you have an employment contract and at the same time you are not employed is too sophisticated for me.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s this from the National Council for Voluntary Organisation&#8217;s legal briefing. It starts saying:</p>
<p>&#8220;There is currently no legislation specifically covering volunteer workers. Neither is there any legal definition of what a voluntary worker is.  Organisations have to be careful that the volunteers don&#8217;t become employees in the eyes of the law.&#8221;</p>
<p>and ends up with a warning:</p>
<p>&#8220;Remember you cannot &#8216;require&#8217; anything of your volunteers. They cannot be bound by contractual obligations without being considered employees by employment tribunals. For example, if you think it would be best that volunteers remain with you for a certain period of time, you should phrase it such that it is not a demand, but only a hope &#8216;that the volunteer have a long, pleasant stay&#8217; with your organisation. Such statements should be reflected in your working practice. Flexibility should be shown toward volunteers who fail to fulfil their expectations.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ncvo-vol.org.uk/advice-support/workforce-development/hr-employment-practice/managing-volunteers/legal-status" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncvo-vol.org.uk/advice-support/workforce-development/hr-employment-practice/managing-volunteers/legal-status</a></p>
<p>I heard from Oxfam today. They&#8217;re working on a response and going to get back to me. I suspect it may be along the lines you say. But even if they feel legally covered (and without a test case tribunal I suspect they won&#8217;t know), I still have misgivings about their ethical position.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Watson</title>
		<link>http://www.youthmoney.com/2010/02/03/posh-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-3031</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Watson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.youthmoney.com/?p=750#comment-3031</guid>
		<description>Hi PJ, thanks for your support, and thanks also for flagging our site elsewhere, it all helps!

In terms of charities having an exemption, it is all laid out here:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/TheNationalMinimumWage/DG_175114

I&#039;ve copied the relevant detail below but essentially this is not about being a &quot;volunteer&quot;. As you say, anyone can do that for any organisation but with charities this is different because they can use people as workers but not be required to pay the NMW because they are in a category called &quot;voluntary workers&quot;, and thereby not due the NMW.

Here&#039;s the detail:

Voluntary workers
Voluntary workers are different to volunteers for NMW purposes. For NMW purposes, to be a voluntary worker you must have an employment contract or contract to perform work or provide services for a charity, voluntary organisation, associated fund raising body or statutory body. You should receive no more than limited expenses and benefits in kind and are not entitled to be paid the NMW.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi PJ, thanks for your support, and thanks also for flagging our site elsewhere, it all helps!</p>
<p>In terms of charities having an exemption, it is all laid out here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/TheNationalMinimumWage/DG_175114" rel="nofollow">http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/TheNationalMinimumWage/DG_175114</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;ve copied the relevant detail below but essentially this is not about being a &#8220;volunteer&#8221;. As you say, anyone can do that for any organisation but with charities this is different because they can use people as workers but not be required to pay the NMW because they are in a category called &#8220;voluntary workers&#8221;, and thereby not due the NMW.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the detail:</p>
<p>Voluntary workers<br />
Voluntary workers are different to volunteers for NMW purposes. For NMW purposes, to be a voluntary worker you must have an employment contract or contract to perform work or provide services for a charity, voluntary organisation, associated fund raising body or statutory body. You should receive no more than limited expenses and benefits in kind and are not entitled to be paid the NMW.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: PJ White</title>
		<link>http://www.youthmoney.com/2010/02/03/posh-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-3030</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.youthmoney.com/?p=750#comment-3030</guid>
		<description>Hi Mark, well done for keeping the pressure on. I&#039;ll flag up your site on some other forums.

The Oxfam charity thing is more complex than you say. Charities don&#039;t have any special exemption. Yes, they use volunteers. (So. incidentally, can any organisation.) But volunteers&#039; status is different from workers&#039;, not just because they don&#039;t get paid but because the whole relationship and expectations are different. To me (and I would have thought to any observer)  the Oxfam offers are clearly contracts of employment. In form and substance they are identical to a job ad. That&#039;s why national minimum wage applies - and just because the company is registered as a charity doesn&#039;t alter anything.

Good luck with the campaign. Love the name, in case people missed it - The SWEAT (Stop Work Experience Abuse Today) campaign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mark, well done for keeping the pressure on. I&#8217;ll flag up your site on some other forums.</p>
<p>The Oxfam charity thing is more complex than you say. Charities don&#8217;t have any special exemption. Yes, they use volunteers. (So. incidentally, can any organisation.) But volunteers&#8217; status is different from workers&#8217;, not just because they don&#8217;t get paid but because the whole relationship and expectations are different. To me (and I would have thought to any observer)  the Oxfam offers are clearly contracts of employment. In form and substance they are identical to a job ad. That&#8217;s why national minimum wage applies &#8211; and just because the company is registered as a charity doesn&#8217;t alter anything.</p>
<p>Good luck with the campaign. Love the name, in case people missed it &#8211; The SWEAT (Stop Work Experience Abuse Today) campaign.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Watson</title>
		<link>http://www.youthmoney.com/2010/02/03/posh-jobs/comment-page-1/#comment-3029</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Watson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.youthmoney.com/?p=750#comment-3029</guid>
		<description>You are absolutely right, well said!

There are many, many companies who are doing this, and many who know that what they are doing is entirely illegal. They rely on the fact that young people will not make a complaint because they do not want to harm their career prospects. As a result they have an endless stream of workers  without the bother of actually having to pay them.

One thing though,  in terms of Oxfam, they are exempt from the minimum wage regulations because they are a charity. Workers in this case would not have to be paid (legally at least) because they are classified as &quot;voluntary workers&quot; and can therefore be unpaid.

However if you want to see which employers are doing this kind of thing entirely illegally, then have a look here:

http://www.tvwatercooler.org/viewforum.php?f=3

We like to ask employers why they are not paying the minimum wage when it looks like they should, and when they don&#039;t have a good reason we post it all up on the site so everyone knows who the offenders are!

Mostly TV and Film jobs, but there has been a fair number of MPs as well, and assorted others. If anyone wants to shop an employer, feel free to go down there and we&#039;ll do the rest - entirely free of course!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are absolutely right, well said!</p>
<p>There are many, many companies who are doing this, and many who know that what they are doing is entirely illegal. They rely on the fact that young people will not make a complaint because they do not want to harm their career prospects. As a result they have an endless stream of workers  without the bother of actually having to pay them.</p>
<p>One thing though,  in terms of Oxfam, they are exempt from the minimum wage regulations because they are a charity. Workers in this case would not have to be paid (legally at least) because they are classified as &#8220;voluntary workers&#8221; and can therefore be unpaid.</p>
<p>However if you want to see which employers are doing this kind of thing entirely illegally, then have a look here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.tvwatercooler.org/viewforum.php?f=3" rel="nofollow">http://www.tvwatercooler.org/viewforum.php?f=3</a></p>
<p>We like to ask employers why they are not paying the minimum wage when it looks like they should, and when they don&#8217;t have a good reason we post it all up on the site so everyone knows who the offenders are!</p>
<p>Mostly TV and Film jobs, but there has been a fair number of MPs as well, and assorted others. If anyone wants to shop an employer, feel free to go down there and we&#8217;ll do the rest &#8211; entirely free of course!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
